Discussion:
Question about tq5 pitch envelope generator
(too old to reply)
benrabaf@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2018-03-06 16:59:17 UTC
Permalink
Hello,


I have a yamaha tq5
I saw that on different manual that the ys200 and tq5 family have a pitch envelope generator .
the tq5 panel don't allow to access (except some quick access parameters) those parameters, but i use sysex,
and the tq5 don't respond to PEG control ,maybe i am missing something ....


Please can you confirm that the tq5 have the PEG capability?


When i make a sysex dump request the three rate level points are visible but not audible...


Bests regards.


FB.
Daniel Forró danforcz@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2018-03-07 00:08:42 UTC
Permalink
It is explained in the manual, that PEG parameters don't work in TQ5. See sign %%%.

Daniel Forro.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
I have a yamaha tq5
I saw that on different manual that the ys200 and tq5 family have a pitch envelope generator .
the tq5 panel don't allow to access (except some quick access parameters) those parameters, but i use sysex,
and the tq5 don't respond to PEG control ,maybe i am missing something .....
Please can you confirm that the tq5 have the PEG capability?
When i make a sysex dump request the three rate level points are visible but not audible...
Bests regards.
FB.
Martin Tarenskeen m.tarenskeen@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
2018-03-07 06:59:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
It is explained in the manual, that PEG parameters don't work in TQ5. See sign %%%.
If you use my old Atari editor/librarian YSEDITOR PLUS version 2.8 (on a
real Atari computer, or in a STeem or Hatari emulator) you will be able to
open the PEG panel in the editor. But if you have selected "TQ5" from the
list of supported synths in the dropdown selector in the opening screen yo
will also notice that the parametername labels are greyed out. This mean
these sliders will not have any effect.

If you have loaded,for example, a DX21 or V50 sysex file, in YSEDITOR, you
can use the patches on a TQ5, you can even see the parametervalues for the
PEG in the editor, but these values are ignored by the TQ5.

Same story for YS200/YS100 and some other Yamaha 4-operator FM synths from
the same family.

YSEDITOR PLUS can still be downloaded from:
http://yseditor.martintarenskeen.nl

I did get some e-mails in the past from people having problems using
YSEDITOR with a TQ5, but I don't own a TQ5 to try that myself. Maybe there
is an old bug somewhere. If I get more detailed bugreports I still might
be able to fix that after more than 25 years

:-) LOL
--
MT
benrabaf@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2018-03-07 09:17:26 UTC
Permalink
Thank you for yours replies.

I have been fooled by different web page that said the differences between the tx81z and the tq5 is the peg :-( .

But does that mean that all the ys... and tq5 family don't have a pitch envelope generator?


I have downloaded the v50 manual, it's write in it that this synth have a peg and portamento but at the end of the manual the vced definition also have the three %%% sign before those parameters ?


FB.
Daniel Forró danforcz@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2018-03-07 09:33:12 UTC
Permalink
You should read manuals more carefully:

TQ5 - %%% means these parameters don’t work

V50 - %%% means these parameters were added to or modified from TX81z

If something doesn’t work, it means it is not there :-)

V50 has PEG and portamento.

Daniel Forro
Post by ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
Thank you for yours replies.
I have been fooled by different web page that said the differences between the tx81z and the tq5 is the peg :-( .
But does that mean that all the ys... and tq5 family don't have a pitch envelope generator?
I have downloaded the v50 manual, it's write in it that this synth have a peg and portamento but at the end of the manual the vced definition also have the three %%% sign before those parameters ?
FB.
'm.tarenskeen@zonnet.nl' m.tarenskeen@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
2018-03-07 10:18:39 UTC
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<p>DX21 and V50 have PEG<br>DX100/27, TX81Z, TQ5 YS100, YS200, B200, DS55 don't have PEG.<br>Can't remember about DX11 and WT11 without checking the manuals.<br>All these synths accept the same SysEx data but will ignore parameters that they don't support.<br><br>Verzonden vanaf mijn Huawei mobiele telefoon<div class="quote"><br><br>-------- Oorspronkelijk bericht --------<br>Onderwerp: [YamahaDX] Re: Question about tq5 pitch envelope generator<br>Van: "***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]" <YamahaDX><br>Aan: ***@yahoogroups.com<br>Cc: <br><br><br type="attribution"><blockquote class="quote" style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;">





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<p>Thank you for yours replies.<div><br></div><div>I have been fooled by different web page that said the differences between the tx81z and the tq5 is the peg&nbsp; :-( .</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>But does that mean that all the ys... and tq5 family don&#39;t have a pitch envelope generator?</div><div><br></div><div>I have downloaded the v50 manual, it&#39;s write in it that this synth have a peg and portamento&nbsp; but at the end of the manual the vced definition also have the three&nbsp;%%% sign before those parameters ?</div><div><br></div><div>FB.</div><div>&nbsp;</div></p>



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Daniel Forró danforcz@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2018-03-07 11:19:13 UTC
Permalink
DX11 (=V2) and TX81z have PEG.

As an owner of WT11 I can confirm that it is compatible with these two in most data types and it has PEG, too.

WT11 is interesting - it’s edit mode is rather limited, but there’s a special secret mode which allows full editing. See here:

http://www.windsynth.net/documents/WT11%20Secret%20Mode.pdf <http://www.windsynth.net/documents/WT11%20Secret%20Mode.pdf>

Daniel Forro
Post by '***@zonnet.nl' ***@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
DX21 and V50 have PEG
DX100/27, TX81Z, TQ5 YS100, YS200, B200, DS55 don't have PEG.
Can't remember about DX11 and WT11 without checking the manuals.
All these synths accept the same SysEx data but will ignore parameters that they don't support.
Daniel Forró danforcz@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2018-03-07 11:44:31 UTC
Permalink
BTW, talking about WT11 I should mention also EW20 Wind Jammer tone generator, which is similar to WT11 and was sold with Wind Controller similar to other WX series, but not compatible with them (special cable).

See for example here or elsewhere on the net:

http://windsynth.net/ew20_rev.html <http://windsynth.net/ew20_rev.html>

Daniel Forro
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
DX11 (=V2) and TX81z have PEG.
As an owner of WT11 I can confirm that it is compatible with these two in most data types and it has PEG, too.
http://www.windsynth.net/documents/WT11%20Secret%20Mode.pdf <http://www.windsynth.net/documents/WT11%20Secret%20Mode.pdf>
Daniel Forro
benrabaf@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2018-03-07 13:54:10 UTC
Permalink
Didn't know about the wt11 ....

I am sure that the tx81z doesn't have peg, in the manual :

"Parameters 87-92 not used in the TX81Z".

i own also a tx81z , i love the sound but it has a limited sysex buffer, the tq5 buffer allow more tweaking.
And the tq5 have aftertouch that's great too.

FB.
Daniel Forró danforcz@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2018-03-07 14:38:54 UTC
Permalink
My mistake, sorry! TX81z, DX11, V2 haven’t PEG, you are right. Too much coffee today, or too less :-)

Daniel Forro
Post by ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
Didn't know about the wt11 ....
"Parameters 87-92 not used in the TX81Z".
i own also a tx81z , i love the sound but it has a limited sysex buffer, the tq5 buffer allow more tweaking.
And the tq5 have aftertouch that's great too.
FB.
'm.tarenskeen@zonnet.nl' m.tarenskeen@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
2018-03-07 16:28:03 UTC
Permalink
Daniel Forró danforcz@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2018-03-08 06:28:14 UTC
Permalink
Definitely you are right :-) It is so.

Daniel Forro
I am pretty sure DX11 does have PEG, TX81Z doesn't
MT
Martin Tarenskeen m.tarenskeen@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
2018-03-07 19:18:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
BTW, talking about WT11 I should mention also EW20 Wind Jammer tone
generator, which is similar to WT11 and was sold with Wind Controller
similar to other WX series, but not compatible with them (special cable).
Hi Daniel,

Do you happen to have SysEx dumps of the WT11 factory ROM patches (I think
there are 3 banks of 32?)? I mean 32 patches copied to RAM, and then
dumped to SysEx file?

They will probably not be optimally playable on my synths, but I could
try using a breathcontroller on my V50, or reprogram the BC parameters to
be controlled using aftertouch or mod.wheels or footcontroller.

And I want to have my 4-op FM patch collection complete LOL :-)


Talking about Breathcontrol: How does a breathcontroller work? What goes
from the BC wire to the BC-input mini-jack? Breath controllers are
1. difficult to get
2. difficult to use musically (for me anyway)

Now I was wondering if any other kind of controller can be connected to
the BC-input on my Yamaha V50 for example. Or maybe there is a nice DIY
project to be discovered here...
--
MT
Daniel Forró danforcz@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2018-03-08 06:09:10 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Martin,

I haven’t my own WT11 dumps, but can do it for you. Now I send you just MID which I have probably from the internet, but
 after short checking it looks like all file have only sounds from bank A.

And there’s no COPY function, so I have to copy Performances one by one.

Then there’s another strange thing - WT11 accessible memories are only Performances, there’s no way how to access Voices. When Performance is copied, probably only effect and some other settings are copied together to appropriate RAM position, but not ROM Voices - there’s no reason for it, because Performance has inside just pointers to .

In specification is written another strange thing: there are 96 ROM Performances, but 112 ROM Voices! Where they are written is not clear
 It looks like some Performances contains two (or even more) voices (theoretically they can have 8 different Voices), but this doesn’t explain that number of 112 Voices in ROM

It’s not quite clear what will happen when I will copy ROM Performances. When I think about it, I suppose there will be no Voices.

I will try some experiments, but recently I haven’t enough time for it.

Concerning Breath controller, I use them since 1986 I had all three Yamaha BC - 1, 2 and 3. Before I have used them with DX7, since 1993 I use them only with my VL1’s and VL1M’s. The best one is older model BC2 with it’s flexible plastic pipe with wire inside, but sometimes it was necessary to cut it little bit. Sometimes also it was necessary to open it and shift the pipe more inside. And foam on holder as well as screws were after years of use damaged or rusted from sweat (I keep it on the neck, not on the head).

BC3 with gooseneck plastic pipes - short and long (more hard then plastic tube) is not so good - first pipe has tendency to fell from the part where it is put on, second it’s very easy to break that part. It happened also to me but I could find a way how to repair it with the help of some small metal pipes of different diameter. Now it’s even better than the original one.

Because I use BC a lot, I bought more of them to have a reserve for future. That was good idea - as I know, they are not in production, and second hand prices are very high recently.

How it works: there’s a voltage coming from its stereo jack from the synthesizer. When you blow, gum membrane with small magnet start to move near sensor, which changes probably resistance, and thus voltage going back to synthesizer.

Of course you can use some other device, when you follow what’s necessary and imitate how BC changes voltage (see DX7 schematics - components in circuit near BC jack are almost the same as those near Foot Controller jack). But with pedal, or some pot you can never get such kind of quick response and sensitivity like with BC. Besides you have to use a leg or hand for controlling it
 Check also PDF I attached, that person uses light sensitive component, maybe that’s quick and flexible, but still you need one hand to change the light amount.
So it was really a great idea from some Yamaha engineer to use breath for control voltage.

I think there were some DIY projects, and also some other firm produces breath controllers now, I have seen something.

It’s not so difficult to use it, but it works the best with VL1/7/70m because modeling engine has the best reaction to it, and lot of parameters can be controlled in the same time. On other Yamaha (or Kurzweil) synthesizers you can control only some parameters, and always only one parameter so it’s not so good.

Daniel Forro
Post by Martin Tarenskeen ***@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
BTW, talking about WT11 I should mention also EW20 Wind Jammer tone
generator, which is similar to WT11 and was sold with Wind Controller
similar to other WX series, but not compatible with them (special cable)..
Hi Daniel,
Do you happen to have SysEx dumps of the WT11 factory ROM patches (I think
there are 3 banks of 32?)? I mean 32 patches copied to RAM, and then
dumped to SysEx file?
They will probably not be optimally playable on my synths, but I could
try using a breathcontroller on my V50, or reprogram the BC parameters to
be controlled using aftertouch or mod.wheels or footcontroller.
And I want to have my 4-op FM patch collection complete LOL :-)
Talking about Breathcontrol: How does a breathcontroller work? What goes
from the BC wire to the BC-input mini-jack? Breath controllers are
1. difficult to get
2. difficult to use musically (for me anyway)
Now I was wondering if any other kind of controller can be connected to
the BC-input on my Yamaha V50 for example. Or maybe there is a nice DIY
project to be discovered here...
--
MT
Characterization of the BREATH input on the VL1-m Synthesizer

From a posting by Art Whitfield to the WIND listserv in December, 1996

**********
*Warning *
**********

Info contained below involved doing things with a VL1-m that Yamaha never intended be done in a home setting.

Use these results at your own hardware risk. Your mileage may vary, and don't call me if you blow up your VL1-m!

As promised (or threatened), here's the rest of the data on characterization of the front panel Breath Control Input (BC) on the VL1-m.

Sleeve = +5V
Ring = BC Analog In
Tip = -12V

By putting a resistance between BC and -12, you can change the BC value in the VL1. To collect the data below, I was watching the screen:
UTIL/SYSTEM/BREATH CONTROL CURVE

Tip-to-Ring....BC
Resistance.....Value

36K...........126
50K...........123
75K.............97
100K...........71
150K...........50
200K...........37
300K...........22
400K...........14
500K...........10
600K............6

As mentioned earlier, this is not a linear response, but by altering the BC curve on this same screen, you can easily compensate and make the VL produce linear BC data.

I've been primarily been puttering with an FSR+50K series resistor. This gives me really nice touch response (VL curve set to straight line). The log nature of the BC input feels good.
Daniel Forró danforcz@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2018-03-08 06:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Here are more about BC, I have found more new products:

http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller <http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller>

https://www.hornberg-research.de/index.php/en/breath-controller-products-en <https://www.hornberg-research.de/index.php/en/breath-controller-products-en>

http://www.mrtaudio.com <http://www.mrtaudio.com/>

http://new-type.asia/ntbc_01_en.html <http://new-type.asia/ntbc_01_en.html>

http://kelfar.net/bck-1-breath-controller/ <http://kelfar.net/bck-1-breath-controller/>

I have attached some schematics and manuals for Yamaha BC1, 2 and 3

Daniel Forro
Post by Martin Tarenskeen ***@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
They will probably not be optimally playable on my synths, but I could
try using a breathcontroller on my V50, or reprogram the BC parameters to
be controlled using aftertouch or mod.wheels or footcontroller.
And I want to have my 4-op FM patch collection complete LOL :-)
Talking about Breathcontrol: How does a breathcontroller work? What goes
from the BC wire to the BC-input mini-jack? Breath controllers are
1. difficult to get
2. difficult to use musically (for me anyway)
Now I was wondering if any other kind of controller can be connected to
the BC-input on my Yamaha V50 for example. Or maybe there is a nice DIY
project to be discovered here...
--
MT
'Dave Dillabough' daved@deepgreen.ca [YamahaDX]
2018-03-09 02:24:36 UTC
Permalink
Here is a discussion of how the Yamaha BC works.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/breath-controller-for-synths-w-bc-input-need-design-help/

Basically you need a variable negative DC voltage with offset and gain
adjustments. It would be easy to substitute a pedal with 2 extra pots for
Gain and Offset.

If there is any interest in breath controllers I could come up with a
design fairly easily. I have been using some nice Motorola pressure
sensors for another project that would work nicely for this.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller
<http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller>
https://www.hornberg-research.de/index.php/en/breath-controller-products-en
<https://www.hornberg-research.de/index.php/en/breath-controller-products-en>
http://www.mrtaudio.com <http://www.mrtaudio.com/>
http://new-type.asia/ntbc_01_en.html
<http://new-type.asia/ntbc_01_en.html>
http://kelfar.net/bck-1-breath-controller/
<http://kelfar.net/bck-1-breath-controller/>
I have attached some schematics and manuals for Yamaha BC1, 2 and 3
Daniel Forro
Post by Martin Tarenskeen ***@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
They will probably not be optimally playable on my synths, but I could
try using a breathcontroller on my V50, or reprogram the BC parameters to
be controlled using aftertouch or mod.wheels or footcontroller.
And I want to have my 4-op FM patch collection complete LOL :-)
Talking about Breathcontrol: How does a breathcontroller work? What goes
from the BC wire to the BC-input mini-jack? Breath controllers are
1. difficult to get
2. difficult to use musically (for me anyway)
Now I was wondering if any other kind of controller can be connected to
the BC-input on my Yamaha V50 for example. Or maybe there is a nice DIY
project to be discovered here...
--
MT
***@deepgreen.ca
Lee templarser@yahoo.co.uk [YamahaDX]
2018-03-09 08:19:02 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for this: I'm gonna have a look,
Just a little aside:
Some time ago,someone (not sure who) posted the notion of using dx modulation wheel as a substitute for breath control.
It suggested routing the modulation to the amplitude of the modulation index (which normally acts acts as 'lfo filter' equivalent) and setting the lfo to minimum thereby rendering increasing timbre from the modulation wheel.
I tried it,and it was a convenient substitution for bc: for those who don't have a bc.
Just thought I'd mention this as a reminder,as it might save a lot of arduous making of bc devices.
Nothing really beats the real bc mcCoy though!

Lee

Sent from my iPhone
Post by 'Dave Dillabough' ***@deepgreen.ca [YamahaDX]
Here is a discussion of how the Yamaha BC works.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/breath-controller-for-synths-w-bc-input-need-design-help/
Basically you need a variable negative DC voltage with offset and gain
adjustments. It would be easy to substitute a pedal with 2 extra pots for
Gain and Offset.
If there is any interest in breath controllers I could come up with a
design fairly easily. I have been using some nice Motorola pressure
sensors for another project that would work nicely for this.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller
<http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller>
https://www.hornberg-research.de/index.php/en/breath-controller-products-en
<https://www.hornberg-research.de/index.php/en/breath-controller-products-en>
http://www.mrtaudio.com <http://www.mrtaudio.com/>
http://new-type.asia/ntbc_01_en.html
<http://new-type.asia/ntbc_01_en.html>
http://kelfar.net/bck-1-breath-controller/
<http://kelfar.net/bck-1-breath-controller/>
I have attached some schematics and manuals for Yamaha BC1, 2 and 3
Daniel Forro
Post by Martin Tarenskeen ***@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
They will probably not be optimally playable on my synths, but I could
try using a breathcontroller on my V50, or reprogram the BC parameters to
be controlled using aftertouch or mod.wheels or footcontroller.
And I want to have my 4-op FM patch collection complete LOL :-)
Talking about Breathcontrol: How does a breathcontroller work? What goes
from the BC wire to the BC-input mini-jack? Breath controllers are
1. difficult to get
2. difficult to use musically (for me anyway)
Now I was wondering if any other kind of controller can be connected to
the BC-input on my Yamaha V50 for example. Or maybe there is a nice DIY
project to be discovered here...
--
MT
Martin Tarenskeen m.tarenskeen@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
2018-03-09 09:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee ***@yahoo.co.uk [YamahaDX]
Some time ago,someone (not sure who) posted the notion of using dx
modulation wheel as a substitute for breath control.
It suggested routing the modulation to the amplitude of the modulation
index (which normally acts acts as 'lfo filter' equivalent) and
setting the lfo to minimum thereby rendering increasing timbre from
the modulation wheel.
I tried it,and it was a convenient substitution for bc: for those who don't have a bc.
Just thought I'd mention this as a reminder,as it might save a lot of
arduous making of bc devices.
Nothing really beats the real bc mcCoy though!
As a little aside to your little aside:

DXconvert has an option called "-bc2at" which copies BC parameters to the
Aftertouch parameters. If you convert patches using this option that
contain BC parameters, then these patches can be controlled using
aftertouch. In that case you need a keyboard that sends aftertouch.

I haven't used this option for ages (I only coded it when it was requested
by a user) so I hardly remember if it is usable.

I also notice TXconvert doesn't have such an option, maybe I should think
about implementing it.
--
MT
'Dave Dillabough' daved@deepgreen.ca [YamahaDX]
2018-03-09 18:54:02 UTC
Permalink
One key thing that often gets overlooked when looking for a breath
controller alternative is that the breath controller outputs an analog
voltage which has potentially a much higher resolution than vintage MIDI.
The Akai wind synths used analog voltages for this reason. You could hear
the steps using MIDI control.

Of course it does depend on what the synth does with the control voltage.
If it does not use the higher resolution then there is not much point
having it.

If I get a chance I'll dig into some synth schematics and have a look at
the breath control circuits.

Dave
Post by Lee ***@yahoo.co.uk [YamahaDX]
Thanks for this: I'm gonna have a look,
Some time ago,someone (not sure who) posted the notion of using dx
modulation wheel as a substitute for breath control.
It suggested routing the modulation to the amplitude of the modulation
index (which normally acts acts as 'lfo filter' equivalent) and setting
the lfo to minimum thereby rendering increasing timbre from the modulation
wheel.
I tried it,and it was a convenient substitution for bc: for those who don't have a bc.
Just thought I'd mention this as a reminder,as it might save a lot of
arduous making of bc devices.
Nothing really beats the real bc mcCoy though!
Lee
Sent from my iPhone
Post by 'Dave Dillabough' ***@deepgreen.ca [YamahaDX]
Here is a discussion of how the Yamaha BC works.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/breath-controller-for-synths-w-bc-input-need-design-help/
Basically you need a variable negative DC voltage with offset and gain
adjustments. It would be easy to substitute a pedal with 2 extra pots for
Gain and Offset.
If there is any interest in breath controllers I could come up with a
design fairly easily. I have been using some nice Motorola pressure
sensors for another project that would work nicely for this.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller
<http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller>
https://www.hornberg-research.de/index.php/en/breath-controller-products-en
<https://www.hornberg-research.de/index.php/en/breath-controller-products-en>
http://www.mrtaudio.com <http://www.mrtaudio.com/>
http://new-type.asia/ntbc_01_en.html
<http://new-type.asia/ntbc_01_en.html>
http://kelfar.net/bck-1-breath-controller/
<http://kelfar.net/bck-1-breath-controller/>
I have attached some schematics and manuals for Yamaha BC1, 2 and 3
Daniel Forro
Post by Martin Tarenskeen ***@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
They will probably not be optimally playable on my synths, but I
could
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
Post by Martin Tarenskeen ***@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
try using a breathcontroller on my V50, or reprogram the BC
parameters
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
Post by Martin Tarenskeen ***@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
to
be controlled using aftertouch or mod.wheels or footcontroller.
And I want to have my 4-op FM patch collection complete LOL :-)
Talking about Breathcontrol: How does a breathcontroller work? What
goes
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
Post by Martin Tarenskeen ***@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
from the BC wire to the BC-input mini-jack? Breath controllers are
1. difficult to get
2. difficult to use musically (for me anyway)
Now I was wondering if any other kind of controller can be connected
to
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
Post by Martin Tarenskeen ***@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
the BC-input on my Yamaha V50 for example. Or maybe there is a nice
DIY
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
Post by Martin Tarenskeen ***@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
project to be discovered here...
--
MT
***@deepgreen.ca
Bruce Wahler bw@ashbysolutions.com [YamahaDX]
2018-03-10 01:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Dave,

I don't know about any actual Bluetooth device; I was just theorizing. 
Since BT can handle stereo audio, one would think that low-latency
31.250kHz data should be possible.

There is still, however, the issue of how much data actually makes it
down the digital pipe, because MIDI isn't an ideal medium for high slew
rates and tiny analog voltages.  Theoretically, this problem can be
solved by using both the MIDI Coarse and MIDI Fine registers for Breath
Control, CC2 and CC34.  This results in 16,384 different levels (2^14). 
However, it takes *at least* twice as long to transmit each byte of data:

* CC2 takes about 1mS per byte; however, using Running Status can
speed things up, if there aren't too many other commends -- ex: 
notes -- in between BC info bytes.  The first message in Running
Status takes three bytes, but later messages take only two bytes.So
even accounting for a 'reasonable' mix of notes and BC, the data
could run at 1.5-2x speed, maybe even close to 3x, if nothing is
coming through except BC data.  But this is at 7-bit data -- i.e.,
0-127 value -- at roughly 1-3kHz rate.

* CC2+CC34 takes twice as long, and running status can only at best
save the first byte.  So, we have 14-bit data at a 500Hz-1kHz rate.

Given a choice, I guess I would go for Door #2 ...

________
The biggest issue is probably demand.  Even in the DX heyday, breath
controllers weren't a big seller.  I was the only player I knew
(personally) that used one.  I imagine that the demand is even lower
today; hence, the Reface's lack of support.


Regards,

-BW

Bruce Wahler
Ashby Solutions.com™
***@ashbysolutions.com
http://music.ashbysolutions.com
http://halfmoon-switch.com
http://ashboys.com
978.597.7008
Martin Tarenskeen m.tarenskeen@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
2018-03-10 06:34:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Talking about aftertouch I found a default behaviour of DXconvert that's
probably often unwanted.

I looked again in my code that handles the -bc2at (breath control to
aftertouch) switch in DXconvert. Then I remembered there are also switches
to ignore/enable the breathcontrol and footcontrol-1/2 parameter data. If
these switches are disabled the values will be reset to initial
zero/neutral values. But in the current state of DXconvert this is default
behaviour. If you forget to enable these switches for example when
converting a collection of DX7 patches from some exotic librray format to
standard sysex ALL AFTERTOUCH AND FOOTCONTROL DATA WILL BE LOST!

Do you agree that this should NOT be the default behaviour? I'm
considering to enable the -fc1 -fc2 and -at switches by default in a next
release. Meaning that these parameters will stay unchanged UNLESS you
deselect them.

http://dxconvert.martintarenskeen.nl
--
MT
Martin Tarenskeen m.tarenskeen@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
2018-03-10 06:55:40 UTC
Permalink
The biggest issue is probably demand.  Even in the DX heyday, breath controllers weren't a big seller.  I was the only player I knew (personally)
that used one.  I imagine that the demand is even lower today; hence, the Reface's lack of support.
Keyboard players, unlike vocalists and brass and woodwindplayers, are
often not trained to control their breath consciously. Then using breath
to control a synth while playing it at the same time can be really
difficult. Keyboard-aftertouch and -velocity and wheels are easier
controllers to handle.
--
MT
Bruce Wahler bw@ashbysolutions.com [YamahaDX]
2018-03-10 13:35:31 UTC
Permalink
Martin,

I completely agree.  However, I was able to make a pretty convincing
saxophone solo on a DX9 using a BC1 -- despite the lack of velocity
sensitivity or six operators.  Yes, it took some training to make it
work well, but I can't see any way to make a key press, wheel, or pedal
simulate double-tonguing and other brass/woodwind tricks.  So, that
leaves one to try to mimic them in the operators, which tends to come
off a little sterile.

Regards,

-BW

Bruce Wahler
Ashby Solutions.com™
***@ashbysolutions.com
http://music.ashbysolutions.com
http://halfmoon-switch.com
http://ashboys.com
978.597.7008
Post by Bruce Wahler ***@ashbysolutions.com [YamahaDX]
Post by Bruce Wahler ***@ashbysolutions.com [YamahaDX]
The biggest issue is probably demand.  Even in the DX heyday, breath
controllers weren't a big seller.  I was the only player I knew
(personally)
Post by Bruce Wahler ***@ashbysolutions.com [YamahaDX]
that used one.  I imagine that the demand is even lower today;
hence, the Reface's lack of support.
Keyboard players, unlike vocalists and brass and woodwindplayers, are
often not trained to control their breath consciously. Then using breath
to control a synth while playing it at the same time can be really
difficult. Keyboard-aftertouch and -velocity and wheels are easier
controllers to handle.
--
MT
Lee templarser@yahoo.co.uk [YamahaDX]
2018-03-09 08:23:38 UTC
Permalink
Btw before I got the actual yammy bc: I tried using a Casio horn to do the same thing: this doesn't actually produce bc as a midi message:but I think either overall or after pressure.
It is possible (using midi ox) to manipulate the midi message to become midi bc,and eradicate the note on/off message from the horn.
Whilst obviously cumbersome,the midi in port is another way to control bc,as opposed to generating voltages at the bc in port.
Obviously hardware bc generation devices are interesting in their own right as projects: so I'm gonna check out the links :-)

Sent from my iPhone
Post by 'Dave Dillabough' ***@deepgreen.ca [YamahaDX]
Here is a discussion of how the Yamaha BC works.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/breath-controller-for-synths-w-bc-input-need-design-help/
Basically you need a variable negative DC voltage with offset and gain
adjustments. It would be easy to substitute a pedal with 2 extra pots for
Gain and Offset.
If there is any interest in breath controllers I could come up with a
design fairly easily. I have been using some nice Motorola pressure
sensors for another project that would work nicely for this.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller
<http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller>
https://www.hornberg-research.de/index.php/en/breath-controller-products-en
<https://www.hornberg-research.de/index.php/en/breath-controller-products-en>
http://www.mrtaudio.com <http://www.mrtaudio.com/>
http://new-type.asia/ntbc_01_en.html
<http://new-type.asia/ntbc_01_en.html>
http://kelfar.net/bck-1-breath-controller/
<http://kelfar.net/bck-1-breath-controller/>
I have attached some schematics and manuals for Yamaha BC1, 2 and 3
Daniel Forro
Post by Martin Tarenskeen ***@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
They will probably not be optimally playable on my synths, but I could
try using a breathcontroller on my V50, or reprogram the BC parameters to
be controlled using aftertouch or mod.wheels or footcontroller.
And I want to have my 4-op FM patch collection complete LOL :-)
Talking about Breathcontrol: How does a breathcontroller work? What goes
from the BC wire to the BC-input mini-jack? Breath controllers are
1. difficult to get
2. difficult to use musically (for me anyway)
Now I was wondering if any other kind of controller can be connected to
the BC-input on my Yamaha V50 for example. Or maybe there is a nice DIY
project to be discovered here...
--
MT
Lee templarser@yahoo.co.uk [YamahaDX]
2018-03-09 08:35:34 UTC
Permalink
Reading back over what Martin said: I was going to mention floor pedals too: I picked up a digitech one which generates cc messages.
If one intends singing whilst playing, having a bc in one's mouth kind of impedes that,thence a floor pedal or wheel becomes preferable!
I suspect the notion of building bc controllers might be worthwhile since I imagine the yammy ones to be getting rarer and there must be a few synths knocking about with bc ports,with no controller to put in there.

Lee

Sent from my iPhone
Post by 'Dave Dillabough' ***@deepgreen.ca [YamahaDX]
Here is a discussion of how the Yamaha BC works.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/breath-controller-for-synths-w-bc-input-need-design-help/
Basically you need a variable negative DC voltage with offset and gain
adjustments. It would be easy to substitute a pedal with 2 extra pots for
Gain and Offset.
If there is any interest in breath controllers I could come up with a
design fairly easily. I have been using some nice Motorola pressure
sensors for another project that would work nicely for this.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller
<http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controller>
https://www.hornberg-research.de/index.php/en/breath-controller-products-en
<https://www.hornberg-research.de/index.php/en/breath-controller-products-en>
http://www.mrtaudio.com <http://www.mrtaudio.com/>
http://new-type.asia/ntbc_01_en.html
<http://new-type.asia/ntbc_01_en.html>
http://kelfar.net/bck-1-breath-controller/
<http://kelfar.net/bck-1-breath-controller/>
I have attached some schematics and manuals for Yamaha BC1, 2 and 3
Daniel Forro
Post by Martin Tarenskeen ***@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
They will probably not be optimally playable on my synths, but I could
try using a breathcontroller on my V50, or reprogram the BC parameters to
be controlled using aftertouch or mod.wheels or footcontroller.
And I want to have my 4-op FM patch collection complete LOL :-)
Talking about Breathcontrol: How does a breathcontroller work? What goes
from the BC wire to the BC-input mini-jack? Breath controllers are
1. difficult to get
2. difficult to use musically (for me anyway)
Now I was wondering if any other kind of controller can be connected to
the BC-input on my Yamaha V50 for example. Or maybe there is a nice DIY
project to be discovered here...
--
MT
Bruce Wahler bw@ashbysolutions.com [YamahaDX]
2018-03-09 11:58:44 UTC
Permalink
I used a BC1 live some years ago.  Yes, it's difficult to manage while
singing -- for lack-of-breath reasons as much as logistics! ;-) -- but
I've never found aftertouch or a foot pedal to be able to perform the
kind of quick modulations that come quite naturally to the Breath
Controller.

The biggest drawback (IMHO) was the skinny little cable and 3.5mm plug: 
not up to gigging standards.  It was always easy to pull it out, if one
got carried away in a solo.  And I always worried that I might find the
connection damaged at the start of the next gig.  A wireless
(Bluetooth?) design would be a logical follow-on, and would probably be
what Yamaha offered, if say, the DX7 came out in 2016. I could imagine
using a built-in rechargeable battery, and a small Bluetooth-to-MIDI
receiver.

Regards,

-BW

Bruce Wahler
Ashby Solutions.com™
***@ashbysolutions.com
http://music.ashbysolutions.com
http://halfmoon-switch.com
http://ashboys.com
978.597.7008
Post by Lee ***@yahoo.co.uk [YamahaDX]
Reading back over what Martin said: I was going to mention floor
pedals too: I picked up a digitech one which generates cc messages.
If one intends singing whilst playing, having a bc in one's mouth kind
of impedes that,thence a floor pedal or wheel becomes preferable!
I suspect the notion of building bc controllers might be worthwhile
since I imagine the yammy ones to be getting rarer and there must be a
few synths knocking about with bc ports,with no controller to put in
there.
Lee
Lee Borrell templarser@yahoo.co.uk [YamahaDX]
2018-03-09 14:11:17 UTC
Permalink
Yep   -it's that natural control style that's missing from the other controllers. Those are good good ideas Bruce. I am not sure if the Reface updates of Yammy classics support BC - if they don't - it's a glaring omission.

Lee

From: "Bruce Wahler ***@ashbysolutions.com [YamahaDX]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 11:58
Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Breath controller

  I used a BC1 live some years ago.  Yes, it's difficult to manage while singing -- for lack-of-breath reasons as much as logistics! ;-) -- but I've never found aftertouch or a foot pedal to be able to perform the kind of quick modulations that come quite naturally to the Breath Controller.

The biggest drawback (IMHO) was the skinny little cable and 3.5mm plug:  not up to gigging standards.  It was always easy to pull it out, if one got carried away in a solo.  And I always worried that I might find the connection damaged at the start of the next gig.  A wireless (Bluetooth?) design would be a logical follow-on, and would probably be what Yamaha offered, if say, the DX7 came out in 2016.  I could imagine using a built-in rechargeable battery, and a small Bluetooth-to-MIDI receiver..

Regards,

-BW

Bruce Wahler
Ashby Solutions.com™
***@ashbysolutions.com
http://music.ashbysolutions.com
http://halfmoon-switch.com
http://ashboys.com
978.597.7008

On 3/9/2018 3:35 AM, Lee ***@yahoo.co.uk [YamahaDX] wrote:

  Reading back over what Martin said: I was going to mention floor pedals too: I picked up a digitech one which generates cc messages. If one intends singing whilst playing, having a bc in one's mouth kind of impedes that,thence a floor pedal or wheel becomes preferable! I suspect the notion of building bc controllers might be worthwhile since I imagine the yammy ones to be getting rarer and there must be a few synths knocking about with bc ports,with no controller to put in there.
Lee

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'm.tarenskeen@zonnet.nl' m.tarenskeen@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
2018-03-09 16:11:53 UTC
Permalink
Lee templarser@yahoo.co.uk [YamahaDX]
2018-03-09 17:22:40 UTC
Permalink
That is indeed something of a glaring omission.

Sent from my iPhone
No, Reface DX does not support Breath Control.
MT
Verzonden vanaf mijn Huawei mobiele telefoon
-------- Oorspronkelijk bericht --------
Onderwerp: Re: [YamahaDX] Breath controller
Yep -it's that natural control style that's missing from the other controllers. Those are good good ideas Bruce. I am not sure if the Reface updates of Yammy classics support BC - if they don't - it's a glaring omission.
Lee
Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 11:58
Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Breath controller
I used a BC1 live some years ago. Yes, it's difficult to manage while singing -- for lack-of-breath reasons as much as logistics! ;-) -- but I've never found aftertouch or a foot pedal to be able to perform the kind of quick modulations that come quite naturally to the Breath Controller.
The biggest drawback (IMHO) was the skinny little cable and 3.5mm plug: not up to gigging standards. It was always easy to pull it out, if one got carried away in a solo. And I always worried that I might find the connection damaged at the start of the next gig. A wireless (Bluetooth?) design would be a logical follow-on, and would probably be what Yamaha offered, if say, the DX7 came out in 2016. I could imagine using a built-in rechargeable battery, and a small Bluetooth-to-MIDI receiver.
Regards,
-BW
Bruce Wahler
Ashby Solutions.com™
http://music.ashbysolutions.com
http://halfmoon-switch.com
http://ashboys.com
978.597.7008
Reading back over what Martin said: I was going to mention floor pedals too: I picked up a digitech one which generates cc messages.
If one intends singing whilst playing, having a bc in one's mouth kind of impedes that,thence a floor pedal or wheel becomes preferable!
I suspect the notion of building bc controllers might be worthwhile since I imagine the yammy ones to be getting rarer and there must be a few synths knocking about with bc ports,with no controller to put in there.
Lee
Brian briantolson@gmail.com [YamahaDX]
2018-03-09 23:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bruce, is there a Bluetooth to midi that doesn’t have a nasty latency?

I’ve tried a few standard types and found them all unusable for anything live.

Brian.

From: Bruce Wahler ***@ashbysolutions.com [YamahaDX]
Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018 10:58 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Breath controller



I used a BC1 live some years ago.  Yes, it's difficult to manage while singing -- for lack-of-breath reasons as much as logistics! ;-) -- but I've never found aftertouch or a foot pedal to be able to perform the kind of quick modulations that come quite naturally to the Breath Controller.

The biggest drawback (IMHO) was the skinny little cable and 3.5mm plug:  not up to gigging standards.  It was always easy to pull it out, if one got carried away in a solo.  And I always worried that I might find the connection damaged at the start of the next gig.  A wireless (Bluetooth?) design would be a logical follow-on, and would probably be what Yamaha offered, if say, the DX7 came out in 2016.  I could imagine using a built-in rechargeable battery, and a small Bluetooth-to-MIDI receiver..
Regards,

-BW

Bruce Wahler
Ashby Solutions.com™
***@ashbysolutions.com
http://music.ashbysolutions.com
http://halfmoon-switch.com
http://ashboys.com
978.597.7008
On 3/9/2018 3:35 AM, Lee ***@yahoo.co.uk [YamahaDX] wrote:
 
Reading back over what Martin said: I was going to mention floor pedals too: I picked up a digitech one which generates cc messages.
If one intends singing whilst playing, having a bc in one's mouth kind of impedes that,thence a floor pedal or wheel becomes preferable!
I suspect the notion of building bc controllers might be worthwhile since I imagine the yammy ones to be getting rarer and there must be a few synths knocking about with bc ports,with no controller to put in there.

Lee
Ldcovino ldcovino@aol.com [YamahaDX]
2018-03-11 22:12:37 UTC
Permalink
FWIW.....   Many years ago I used the BC-1 on my DX9 and it was particularly useful for horns in the song Midnight Confessions by the Grass Roots, and other such songs with horn or sax parts.   Emulated the horn section almost perfectly. 

Regards to all, 


L. David Covino CFE ALHC







-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Wahler ***@ashbysolutions.com [YamahaDX] <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: YamahaDX <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Mar 10, 2018 8:35 am
Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Breath controller

Martin,

I completely agree.  However, I was able to make a pretty convincing saxophone solo on a DX9 using a BC1 -- despite the lack of velocity sensitivity or six operators.  Yes, it took some training to make it work well, but I can't see any way to make a key press, wheel, or pedal simulate double-tonguing and other brass/woodwind tricks.  So, that leaves one to try to mimic them in the operators, which tends to come off a little sterile.

Regards,

-BW

Bruce Wahler
Ashby Solutions.com™
***@ashbysolutions.com
http://music.ashbysolutions.com
http://halfmoon-switch.com
http://ashboys.com
978.597.7008

On 3/10/2018 1:55 AM, Martin Tarenskeen ***@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX] wrote:
 
The biggest issue is probably demand.  Even in the DX heyday, breath controllers weren't a big seller.  I was the only player I knew (personally)
that used one.  I imagine that the demand is even lower today; hence, the Reface's lack of support.
Keyboard players, unlike vocalists and brass and woodwindplayers, are
often not trained to control their breath consciously. Then using breath
to control a synth while playing it at the same time can be really
difficult. Keyboard-aftertouch and -velocity and wheels are easier
controllers to handle.
--
MT
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