Discussion:
[YamahaDX] Yamaha Patches held on Studio Libraries ( how soon before they are lost forever!)
glenjdiamond@gmail.com [YamahaDX]
2016-02-17 10:38:35 UTC
Permalink
During the 80's and 90's there must have been music studios who kept copies of Yamaha DX patches on their now ancient computers/macs. There would have been "intellectual property" for Song Writing but would that have extended to the mathematical patches for the synth sounds? Some of these computers will be almost certainly destined for the rubbish skip and most of the technicians may now be elderly or worse (dead?!) Is it worth trying to contact the technicians or studios to see if they can freely preserve these libraries so that future musicians can make use of them.
Daniel Forró danforcz@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2016-02-17 11:02:54 UTC
Permalink
Do you really think they have used some special presets except factory
presets, commercially offered sound sets or freely accessible patches?

I don't think.

I think that to get sound patches this way would be impossible... and
with uncertain result. For sure I wouldn't expect any surprises or
sound gems from this direction. Pop music has rather limited range of
its usable sounds. Who would need another E-piano Nr. 5678, Brass Nr.
4447 etc...? Even very flexible DX algorithm synthesis has its limits.
Let's not forget that lot of commonly used sounds which came later
with digital sampling or physical modeling surpasses FM sounds in
authenticity and expressivity (when we need acoustic or electro-
acoustic instruments emulations, sound effects, analog synths
emulations, drums & percussion...).

After all those years and recent situation in the field of
synthesizers lot of DX sounds became obsolete and somehow unusable.
Still DX synthesis has a lot of to offer for experimental electronic
music, and serves as an excellent addition and partner for modern
instruments based on sampling and physical modeling.

Daniel Forro
Post by ***@gmail.com [YamahaDX]
During the 80's and 90's there must have been music studios who kept
copies of Yamaha DX patches on their now ancient computers/macs.
There would have been "intellectual property" for Song Writing but
would that have extended to the mathematical patches for the synth
sounds? Some of these computers will be almost certainly destined
for the rubbish skip and most of the technicians may now be elderly
or worse (dead?!) Is it worth trying to contact the technicians or
studios to see if they can freely preserve these libraries so that
future musicians can make use of them.
Daniel Forró danforcz@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2016-02-17 15:53:14 UTC
Permalink
In the context of my previous message - which can be considered by
some lovers of DX/TX and Yamaha algorithm synthesis rather
provocative, rebellious, confrontational, controversial or even
arrogant (but based on my 30 years experience with it, and of course
I'm still in deep love to it after all those years) - it would be
interesting to start new thread:

How do you use Yamaha DX/TX... FM/algorithm synthesis instruments?
Also SY/TG/FS1r or other FM synths, or virtual FM synths like NI FM7/8
or other?

Possible questions can be:
- how many years do you use some FM instrument

- which FM instruments could you experience in your life

- which FM hardware or software instruments do you have recently

- what was your first FM instrument

- hardware X software instrument

- first generation X second generation X AFM X FS1r

- 4 OP X 6 OP X other

- live performance X studio recording

- in which music style

- solo X in combination with other instruments (which?)

- which sound categories do you use or prefer on DX/TX instruments

- which sounds: factory X commercial sound sets X free sounds from the
internet X your own creations

- can you create new patches from zero on DX/TX instruments X do you
make just small edits of some parameters in available patches X you
just use available patches as it is

- do you use FM instrument as source of samples for samplers

- in your opinion what is still so attractive on FM synthesis after
all those years, that we all still love it, use it, and Yamaha even
offers new FM instruments

- what is the most attractive point(s) for you personally on FM
synthesis

For sure there can be more questions, anybody can add some...

I'm sure this discussion can bring some interesting results if lot of
us would send his/her opinion. Let's start :-) Here are my quick
answers.

------------------
- 30 years
- Yamaha DX7, TX7, TX416, TX816, DX7 II D, DX7 II FD, DX7s, TX802,
TX81z, DX11, DX21, DX27, DX100, V50, TQ5, PF FM pianos, some FM
organs, SY77, TG77, SY99, FS1r, PLG100-DX, PLG150-DX, DX200, Korg 707,
DS8 and probably more
- DX5, DX7, DX7 II D, FS1r, SY99, TG77, TX416, 2x TX802, TX816, 2x
TX81z, V50, WT11, PLG100-DX
- DX7
- I prefer hardware
- I like all generations, each can offer something interesting
- I prefer 6 OP or FS1r, but 4 OP synths can have surprisingly good
sounds - I like V50 performances, TX81z multimode and MIDI effects
(pan, chord, echo).
- Mostly studio. Besides keyboard control I use also WX5 Wind
Controller and G10 Guitar Controller.
- Electronic music - classics, pop, rock, jazz, ethnic, experimental,
computer, microtonal
- Mostly in the combination with other analog and digital synthesis,
sampling and physical modeling
- Mostly electronic sounds - metallic, clangorous, inharmonic,
distorted, plucked and percussive sounds, slowly evolving pads,
vocals, lead/bass synths, mallets, microtonal textures, sound FX
- All of this
- All of this
- It was well invented, lot of quite different sounds can be created
with it, range goes from pure FM through component additive to pure
additive synthesis. No other synthesis principle offers so easy
creation of inharmonic specters and very dirty and distorted sounds.
TX816 and instruments with Performance mode allow layering of sounds.
Possibilities go even more far in SY/TG with AFM synthesis, or FS1r
with even more advanced FM/FS combination.
- Sound creation potential, typical sound character with easily
recognizable identity, expressiveness. On the programming level: OP
detune, Fixed Frequency, envelopes (Level 4 higher than zero!), pitch
envelope, keyboard scaling, velocity control, on newer generation
random pitch, unison, Performance and multimode, more LFO,
microtonality, on SY/TG filters and effect processors...
------------------

Daniel Forro
Pop music has rather limited range of its usable sounds. Who would
need another E-piano Nr. 5678, Brass Nr. 4447 etc...? Even very
flexible DX algorithm synthesis has its limits. Let's not forget
that lot of commonly used sounds which came later with digital
sampling or physical modeling surpasses FM sounds in authenticity
and expressivity (when we need acoustic or electro-acoustic
instruments emulations, sound effects, analog synths emulations,
drums & percussion...).
After all those years and recent situation in the field of
synthesizers lot of DX sounds became obsolete and somehow unusable.
Still DX synthesis has a lot of to offer for experimental electronic
music, and serves as an excellent addition and partner for modern
instruments based on sampling and physical modeling.
Daniel Forro
JAMIE logan jammie.emma@blueyonder.co.uk [YamahaDX]
2016-02-17 17:26:00 UTC
Permalink
just use my sy99 now with new pcm and waveblade images i have been creating a
few bin files and did some floppy sets
In the context of my previous message - which can be considered by some
lovers of DX/TX and Yamaha algorithm synthesis rather provocative, rebellious,
confrontational, controversial or even arrogant (but based on my 30 years
experience with it, and of course I'm still in deep love to it after all those
How do you use Yamaha DX/TX... FM/algorithm synthesis instruments? Also
SY/TG/FS1r or other FM synths, or virtual FM synths like NI FM7/8 or other?
- how many years do you use some FM instrument
- which FM instruments could you experience in your life
- which FM hardware or software instruments do you have recently
- what was your first FM instrument
- hardware X software instrument
- first generation X second generation X AFM X FS1r
- 4 OP X 6 OP X other
- live performance X studio recording
- in which music style
- solo X in combination with other instruments (which?)
- which sound categories do you use or prefer on DX/TX instruments
- which sounds: factory X commercial sound sets X free sounds from the
internet X your own creations
- can you create new patches from zero on DX/TX instruments X do you make
just small edits of some parameters in available patches X you just use
available patches as it is
- do you use FM instrument as source of samples for samplers
- in your opinion what is still so attractive on FM synthesis after all
those years, that we all still love it, use it, and Yamaha even offers new FM
instruments
- what is the most attractive point(s) for you personally on FM synthesis
For sure there can be more questions, anybody can add some...
I'm sure this discussion can bring some interesting results if lot of us
would send his/her opinion. Let's start :-) Here are my quick answers.
------------------
- 30 years
- Yamaha DX7, TX7, TX416, TX816, DX7 II D, DX7 II FD, DX7s, TX802, TX81z,
DX11, DX21, DX27, DX100, V50, TQ5, PF FM pianos, some FM organs, SY77, TG77,
SY99, FS1r, PLG100-DX, PLG150-DX, DX200, Korg 707, DS8 and probably more
- DX5, DX7, DX7 II D, FS1r, SY99, TG77, TX416, 2x TX802, TX816, 2
x TX81z, V50, WT11, PLG100-DX
- DX7
- I prefer hardware
- I like all generations, each can offer something interesting
- I prefer 6 OP or FS1r, but 4 OP synths can have surprisingly good sounds
- I like V50 performances, TX81z multimode and MIDI effects (pan, chord,
echo).
- Mostly studio. Besides keyboard control I use also WX5 Wind Controller
and G10 Guitar Controller.
- Electronic music - classics, pop, rock, jazz, ethnic, experimental,
computer, microtonal
- Mostly in the combination with other analog and digital synthesis,
sampling and physical modeling
- Mostly electronic sounds - metallic, clangorous, inharmonic, distorted,
plucked and percussive sounds, slowly evolving pads, vocals, lead/bass synths,
mallets, microtonal textures, sound FX
- All of this
- All of this
- It was well invented, lot of quite different sounds can be created with
it, range goes from pure FM through component additive to pure additive
synthesis. No other synthesis principle offers so easy creation of inharmonic
specters and very dirty and distorted sounds. TX816 and instruments with
Performance mode allow layering of sounds. Possibilities go even more far in
SY/TG with AFM synthesis, or FS1r with even more advanced FM/FS combination.
- Sound creation potential, typical sound character with easily
recognizable identity, expressiveness. On the programming level: OP detune,
Fixed Frequency, envelopes (Level 4 higher than zero!), pitch envelope,
keyboard scaling, velocity control, on newer generation random pitch, unison,
Performance and multimode, more LFO, microtonality, on SY/TG filters and
effect processors...
------------------
Daniel Forro
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
Pop music has rather limited range of its usable sounds.
Who would need another E-piano Nr. 5678, Brass Nr. 4447 etc...?
Even very flexible DX algorithm synthesis has its limits. Let's
not forget that lot of commonly used sounds which came later with
digital sampling or physical modeling surpasses FM sounds in
authenticity and expressivity (when we need acoustic or
electro-acoustic instruments emulations, sound effects, analog
synths emulations, drums & percussion...).
After all those years and recent situation in the field of
synthesizers lot of DX sounds became obsolete and somehow unusable. Still DX
synthesis has a lot of to offer for experimental electronic music, and
serves as an excellent addition and partner for modern instruments based on
sampling and physical modeling.
Daniel Forro
Florian Anwander fanwander@mnet-online.de [YamahaDX]
2016-02-17 17:49:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- how many years do you use some FM instrument
Since 1983/84
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which FM instruments could you experience in your life
DX7, TX7, DX21, Nord Modular
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which FM hardware or software instruments do you have recently
DX7, TX7, TX81Z, DX21, Nord Modular
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- what was your first FM instrument
DX7
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- hardware X software instrument
Prefer Hardware
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- first generation X second generation X AFM X FS1r
I'd have no preferences. But first Generation is enough for me.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- 4 OP X 6 OP X other
Somehow I like 4OP more than 6OP
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- live performance X studio recording
Actually Live only, but hav 20 years of studio experience (of which the
first 10 were as professional)
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- in which music style
Pop/Rock/Commercial/Filmmusic - today: House/Techno
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- solo X in combination with other instruments (which?)
in combination with samplers and analog subtractive synths
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which sound categories do you use or prefer on DX/TX instruments
No special categories.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which sounds: factory X commercial sound sets X free sounds from the
internet X your own creations
I use 80% sounds, which I created my self by modifying existing sounds
heavily.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- can you create new patches from zero on DX/TX instruments X do you
make just small edits of some parameters in available patches X you
just use available patches as it is
I can create new patches from zero on DX/TX instruments
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- do you use FM instrument as source of samples for samplers
Only with If I want to sample them with additional Efx
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- in your opinion what is still so attractive on FM synthesis after
all those years, that we all still love it, use it, and Yamaha even
offers new FM instruments
What is attractive: mostly the "percussiveness" and the possible
variation given by velocity. For Part 2: Yamaha does offer...
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- what is the most attractive point(s) for you personally on FM synthesis
See above


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Bruce Wahler bw@ashbysolutions.com [YamahaDX]
2016-02-17 18:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- how many years do you use some FM instrument
Since 1983, I think; could be 1984.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which FM instruments could you experience in your life
DX7, DX9, TR81z, TX802, DX100, Access Virus TI (limited FM capabilities)
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which FM hardware or software instruments do you have recently
TX802, Access Virus TI
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- what was your first FM instrument
DX9
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- hardware X software instrument
I prefer hardware synths, always have.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- first generation X second generation X AFM X FS1r
2nd Gen
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- 4 OP X 6 OP X other
6 OP -- although I got by with the TX81Z for several years ...
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- live performance X studio recording
Live performance
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- in which music style
Too many to name
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- solo X in combination with other instruments (which?)
In combination, usually.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which sound categories do you use or prefer on DX/TX instruments
Bells, brass, noises.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which sounds: factory X commercial sound sets X free sounds from the
internet X your own creations
My own creations, mostly. (To be fair, some of them are based on other
factory or commercial patches.) I tend to erase the banks on a new
synth and start creating my own.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- can you create new patches from zero on DX/TX instruments X do you
make just small edits of some parameters in available patches X you
just use available patches as it is
I can make fresh patches, but it takes a lot of time! I tend to listen
to patches for the right envelopes and duration, then change the timbre
to match my needs. So, I guess I fall into a fourth category: I mostly
make *large edits to available patches.

I almost never use available patches as-is, not on any instrument. I can
always hear something that I want to tweak a little. Even if it's only
the vibrato speed or the reverb!
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- do you use FM instrument as source of samples for samplers
No. I rarely use a sampler/ROMpler, if the real thing is available.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- in your opinion what is still so attractive on FM synthesis after
all those years, that we all still love it, use it, and Yamaha even
offers new FM instruments
There is a 'glassy' kind of timbre to most patches that sits well in a
mix. It's artificial-sounding, yet it doesn't *sound* artificial at the
same time.

It also can give any song an '80s feeling.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- what is the most attractive point(s) for you personally on FM synthesis
See above.


Regards,

-BW

Bruce Wahler
Ashby Solutions.com™
***@ashbysolutions.com
http://music.ashbysolutions.com
877.55.ASHBY (877.552.7429)
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
------------------
- 30 years
- Yamaha DX7, TX7, TX416, TX816, DX7 II D, DX7 II FD, DX7s, TX802,
TX81z, DX11, DX21, DX27, DX100, V50, TQ5, PF FM pianos, some FM
organs, SY77, TG77, SY99, FS1r, PLG100-DX, PLG150-DX, DX200, Korg 707,
DS8 and probably more
- DX5, DX7, DX7 II D, FS1r, SY99, TG77, TX416, 2x TX802, TX816, 2x
TX81z, V50, WT11, PLG100-DX
- DX7
- I prefer hardware
- I like all generations, each can offer something interesting
- I prefer 6 OP or FS1r, but 4 OP synths can have surprisingly good
sounds - I like V50 performances, TX81z multimode and MIDI effects
(pan, chord, echo).
- Mostly studio. Besides keyboard control I use also WX5 Wind
Controller and G10 Guitar Controller.
- Electronic music - classics, pop, rock, jazz, ethnic, experimental,
computer, microtonal
- Mostly in the combination with other analog and digital synthesis,
sampling and physical modeling
- Mostly electronic sounds - metallic, clangorous, inharmonic,
distorted, plucked and percussive sounds, slowly evolving pads,
vocals, lead/bass synths, mallets, microtonal textures, sound FX
- All of this
- All of this
- It was well invented, lot of quite different sounds can be created
with it, range goes from pure FM through component additive to pure
additive synthesis. No other synthesis principle offers so easy
creation of inharmonic specters and very dirty and distorted sounds.
TX816 and instruments with Performance mode allow layering of sounds.
Possibilities go even more far in SY/TG with AFM synthesis, or FS1r
with even more advanced FM/FS combination.
- Sound creation potential, typical sound character with easily
recognizable identity, expressiveness. On the programming level: OP
detune, Fixed Frequency, envelopes (Level 4 higher than zero!), pitch
envelope, keyboard scaling, velocity control, on newer generation
random pitch, unison, Performance and multimode, more LFO,
microtonality, on SY/TG filters and effect processors...
------------------
Daniel Forro
Pop music has rather limited range of its usable sounds. Who would
need another E-piano Nr. 5678, Brass Nr. 4447 etc...? Even very
flexible DX algorithm synthesis has its limits. Let's not forget that
lot of commonly used sounds which came later with digital sampling or
physical modeling surpasses FM sounds in authenticity and
expressivity (when we need acoustic or electro-acoustic instruments
emulations, sound effects, analog synths emulations, drums &
percussion...).
After all those years and recent situation in the field of
synthesizers lot of DX sounds became obsolete and somehow unusable.
Still DX synthesis has a lot of to offer for experimental electronic
music, and serves as an excellent addition and partner for modern
instruments based on sampling and physical modeling.
Daniel Forro
Martin Tarenskeen m.tarenskeen@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
2016-02-17 23:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- how many years do you use some FM instrument
since around 1989
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which FM instruments could you experience in your life
I have been owner of:
Yamaha YS200, V50, Korg 707
I have used and tested instruments, not owned by me:
Yamaha DS55, TX81Z, DX21, WT11, DX7II
I now own: (see next question)
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which FM hardware or software instruments do you have recently
Hardware: Yamaha Reface DX, FB-01, DX100, PSS-480, Korg DS-8, TX-7
Software: Hexter DSSI, Dexed, OxeFM, FMHeaven, VOPM (original), VOPM-B
(personally patched edition: the original sounds one octave too high)

Plus I recently bought a TQ5-VSTi. Not really an FM softsynth, but a VSTi
with multisamples of all 100 factory presets from the Yamaha TQ5, the same
presets that I know from my YS200. The sampleplayer cannot compete with a
real YS200/TQ5. But it was cheap and good enough for fun.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- what was your first FM instrument
Yamaha YS200
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- hardware X software instrument
Digital FM synths - like the Yamaha (and a few other) instruments we are
talking about here - ARE (unlike analog synths) in fact software
instruments. But they are conveniently packed inside a ready to use
hardware controller keyboard, or boxed module. Just plug it in a mixer or
amp and you can make music. Perfect for live and stage performances.

Software is more flexible and is easier to integrate in a
computer/DAW/studio environment.

I don't think hardware FM sounds any better or worse than software. That
difference is more obvious with analog synths vs software VA synths.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- first generation X second generation X AFM X FS1r
The first generation still sounds really good. But evolution continues,
and that's a good thing.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- 4 OP X 6 OP X other
My specialism and first love is 4-OP FM. Because the YS200 was my first FM
synth, and I have spent many years developing YSEDITOR (Atari ST) for
YS200/TQ5, DX100/21/27, TX81Z, DS55, V50, DX11, WT11, FB01. And because
4-op FM is easier to grasp than 6-op, not to mention 8-op. But I
must also admit that 6-op simply sounds better then 4-op.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- live performance X studio recording
Mostly home studio
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- in which music style
Jazz, Pop, anything.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- solo X in combination with other instruments (which?)
My first instrument is the piano. My digital piano is a great companion
for my FM synths, both as a MIDI controller and as soundsource for
layering.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which sound categories do you use or prefer on DX/TX instruments
Bells, e-pianos, plucked, metallic, experimental. IMO it's the attack
portion, the first milliseconds, and the expressive way you can control
that with editparameters and key velocity, that make FM synths so special.
Sure, you can also make really nice and beautiful pads and strings with a
DX. But there other digital and analog synths that can do that maybe even
better.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which sounds: factory X commercial sound sets X free sounds from the
internet X your own creations
The amount of (first generation Yamaha) 6-op and 4-op FM patchcollections
on the internet and on my harddisk is really ridiculous. I use
DX/TXconvert to find, convert, and select patches. There is not much need
to buy commercial collections anymore. I have bought some commercial
patchcollections in the 90's. For my Reface DX free new sounds can be
shared and downloaded on Yamaha's Soundmondo website, and I am working on
conversion from my "classic" 4-op FM collections.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- can you create new patches from zero on DX/TX instruments X do you make
just small edits of some parameters in available patches X you just use
available patches as it is
I know how to create new patches, but I don't really do that very often
anymore. Despite what many people say I think FM synthesis is not
that difficult. But it's a lot of work. Small edits are no problem.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- do you use FM instrument as source of samples for samplers
No. But I have sampled version of the TQ5 factory presets in a VSTi
instrument.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- in your opinion what is still so attractive on FM synthesis after all
those years, that we all still love it, use it, and Yamaha even offers new
FM instruments
Playable, expressive, programmability. In combination with a good keyboard
controller, the best FM-synthesized patches react to my classically
trained pianist hands and mind in a very natural, expressive and musical
way. And FM sounds different than Analog, or VA, or sampling, or
modelling or whatever. Diversity and freedom of choice is a good thing.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- what is the most attractive point(s) for you personally on FM synthesis
See above.

MT
Daniel Forró danforcz@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2016-02-17 23:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for answer, Martin.

I see that I forgot to include in my list of experience FB01, WT11 and
Yamaha MSX computers CX5m and Cx5m II with 4 OP FM tone generator and
editing software.

When there will come enough answers I try to make some common
conclusions from it.

Daniel Forro
Post by Martin Tarenskeen ***@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- how many years do you use some FM instrument
since around 1989
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which FM instruments could you experience in your life
Yamaha YS200, V50, Korg 707
Yamaha DS55, TX81Z, DX21, WT11, DX7II
I now own: (see next question)
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which FM hardware or software instruments do you have recently
Hardware: Yamaha Reface DX, FB-01, DX100, PSS-480, Korg DS-8, TX-7
Software: Hexter DSSI, Dexed, OxeFM, FMHeaven, VOPM (original), VOPM-B
(personally patched edition: the original sounds one octave too high)
Plus I recently bought a TQ5-VSTi. Not really an FM softsynth, but a VSTi
with multisamples of all 100 factory presets from the Yamaha TQ5, the same
presets that I know from my YS200. The sampleplayer cannot compete with a
real YS200/TQ5. But it was cheap and good enough for fun.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- what was your first FM instrument
Yamaha YS200
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- hardware X software instrument
Digital FM synths - like the Yamaha (and a few other) instruments we are
talking about here - ARE (unlike analog synths) in fact software
instruments. But they are conveniently packed inside a ready to use
hardware controller keyboard, or boxed module. Just plug it in a mixer or
amp and you can make music. Perfect for live and stage performances.
Software is more flexible and is easier to integrate in a
computer/DAW/studio environment.
I don't think hardware FM sounds any better or worse than software. That
difference is more obvious with analog synths vs software VA synths.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- first generation X second generation X AFM X FS1r
The first generation still sounds really good. But evolution
continues,
and that's a good thing.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- 4 OP X 6 OP X other
My specialism and first love is 4-OP FM. Because the YS200 was my first FM
synth, and I have spent many years developing YSEDITOR (Atari ST) for
YS200/TQ5, DX100/21/27, TX81Z, DS55, V50, DX11, WT11, FB01. And because
4-op FM is easier to grasp than 6-op, not to mention 8-op. But I
must also admit that 6-op simply sounds better then 4-op.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- live performance X studio recording
Mostly home studio
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- in which music style
Jazz, Pop, anything.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- solo X in combination with other instruments (which?)
My first instrument is the piano. My digital piano is a great
companion
for my FM synths, both as a MIDI controller and as soundsource for
layering.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which sound categories do you use or prefer on DX/TX instruments
Bells, e-pianos, plucked, metallic, experimental. IMO it's the attack
portion, the first milliseconds, and the expressive way you can control
that with editparameters and key velocity, that make FM synths so special.
Sure, you can also make really nice and beautiful pads and strings with a
DX. But there other digital and analog synths that can do that maybe even
better.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which sounds: factory X commercial sound sets X free sounds from the
internet X your own creations
The amount of (first generation Yamaha) 6-op and 4-op FM
patchcollections
on the internet and on my harddisk is really ridiculous. I use
DX/TXconvert to find, convert, and select patches. There is not much need
to buy commercial collections anymore. I have bought some commercial
patchcollections in the 90's. For my Reface DX free new sounds can be
shared and downloaded on Yamaha's Soundmondo website, and I am
working on
conversion from my "classic" 4-op FM collections.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- can you create new patches from zero on DX/TX instruments X do you make
just small edits of some parameters in available patches X you just use
available patches as it is
I know how to create new patches, but I don't really do that very often
anymore. Despite what many people say I think FM synthesis is not
that difficult. But it's a lot of work. Small edits are no problem.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- do you use FM instrument as source of samples for samplers
No. But I have sampled version of the TQ5 factory presets in a VSTi
instrument.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- in your opinion what is still so attractive on FM synthesis after all
those years, that we all still love it, use it, and Yamaha even offers new
FM instruments
Playable, expressive, programmability. In combination with a good keyboard
controller, the best FM-synthesized patches react to my classically
trained pianist hands and mind in a very natural, expressive and musical
way. And FM sounds different than Analog, or VA, or sampling, or
modelling or whatever. Diversity and freedom of choice is a good thing.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- what is the most attractive point(s) for you personally on FM synthesis
See above.
MT
David Robinson gitfiddl@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2016-02-18 00:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Let me say first that I've been a working musician since the early 1980's.  I couldn't afford a DX when they came out back then.  I bought my first DX7 in 2000 from eBay for $200.  It was a first generation.  I wore it out and bought another for about the same price.  A bandmate then sold me his DX7IIfd for $250.  I gigged extensively with both and just recently acquired a.SY99.  I've never been able to wrap my head around the programming aspects and rely on the onboard sounds and whatever cartridges I can lay my hands on.
From a performer/player's perspective, the Yamaha action/keybed on the DX and related synth keyboards can't be beat.  I have destroyed many less robust actions on synths and electric pianos over the 30+ years.
The best compliment on my DX7II was from a guy that toured with a Hammond B3/Leslie rig.  I was using the "Grinder" patches to cover organ sounds.  He actually came up onstage and looked for the Leslie!



From: "Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]" <***@yahoogroups.com>
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] How do you use DX/TX synthesizers?

  Thanks for answer, Martin.

I see that I forgot to include in my list of experience FB01, WT11 and
Yamaha MSX computers CX5m and Cx5m II with 4 OP FM tone generator and
editing software.

When there will come enough answers I try to make some common
conclusions from it.

Daniel Forro
Post by Martin Tarenskeen ***@zonnet.nl [YamahaDX]
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- how many years do you use some FM instrument
since around 1989
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which FM instruments could you experience in your life
Yamaha YS200, V50, Korg 707
Yamaha DS55, TX81Z, DX21, WT11, DX7II
I now own: (see next question)
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which FM hardware or software instruments do you have recently
Hardware: Yamaha Reface DX, FB-01, DX100, PSS-480, Korg DS-8, TX-7
Software: Hexter DSSI, Dexed, OxeFM, FMHeaven, VOPM (original), VOPM-B
(personally patched edition: the original sounds one octave too high)
Plus I recently bought a TQ5-VSTi. Not really an FM softsynth, but a VSTi
with multisamples of all 100 factory presets from the Yamaha TQ5, the same
presets that I know from my YS200. The sampleplayer cannot compete with a
real YS200/TQ5. But it was cheap and good enough for fun.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- what was your first FM instrument
Yamaha YS200
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- hardware X software instrument
Digital FM synths - like the Yamaha (and a few other) instruments we are
talking about here - ARE (unlike analog synths) in fact software
instruments. But they are conveniently packed inside a ready to use
hardware controller keyboard, or boxed module. Just plug it in a mixer or
amp and you can make music. Perfect for live and stage performances.
Software is more flexible and is easier to integrate in a
computer/DAW/studio environment.
I don't think hardware FM sounds any better or worse than software. That
difference is more obvious with analog synths vs software VA synths.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- first generation X second generation X AFM X FS1r
The first generation still sounds really good. But evolution
continues,
and that's a good thing.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- 4 OP X 6 OP X other
My specialism and first love is 4-OP FM. Because the YS200 was my first FM
synth, and I have spent many years developing YSEDITOR (Atari ST) for
YS200/TQ5, DX100/21/27, TX81Z, DS55, V50, DX11, WT11, FB01. And because
4-op FM is easier to grasp than 6-op, not to mention 8-op. But I
must also admit that 6-op simply sounds better then 4-op.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- live performance X studio recording
Mostly home studio
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- in which music style
Jazz, Pop, anything.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- solo X in combination with other instruments (which?)
My first instrument is the piano. My digital piano is a great
companion
for my FM synths, both as a MIDI controller and as soundsource for
layering.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which sound categories do you use or prefer on DX/TX instruments
Bells, e-pianos, plucked, metallic, experimental. IMO it's the attack
portion, the first milliseconds, and the expressive way you can control
that with editparameters and key velocity, that make FM synths so special.
Sure, you can also make really nice and beautiful pads and strings with a
DX. But there other digital and analog synths that can do that maybe even
better.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- which sounds: factory X commercial sound sets X free sounds from the
internet X your own creations
The amount of (first generation Yamaha) 6-op and 4-op FM
patchcollections
on the internet and on my harddisk is really ridiculous. I use
DX/TXconvert to find, convert, and select patches. There is not much need
to buy commercial collections anymore. I have bought some commercial
patchcollections in the 90's. For my Reface DX free new sounds can be
shared and downloaded on Yamaha's Soundmondo website, and I am
working on
conversion from my "classic" 4-op FM collections.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- can you create new patches from zero on DX/TX instruments X do you make
just small edits of some parameters in available patches X you just use
available patches as it is
I know how to create new patches, but I don't really do that very often
anymore. Despite what many people say I think FM synthesis is not
that difficult. But it's a lot of work. Small edits are no problem.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- do you use FM instrument as source of samples for samplers
No. But I have sampled version of the TQ5 factory presets in a VSTi
instrument.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- in your opinion what is still so attractive on FM synthesis after all
those years, that we all still love it, use it, and Yamaha even offers new
FM instruments
Playable, expressive, programmability. In combination with a good keyboard
controller, the best FM-synthesized patches react to my classically
trained pianist hands and mind in a very natural, expressive and musical
way. And FM sounds different than Analog, or VA, or sampling, or
modelling or whatever. Diversity and freedom of choice is a good thing.
Post by Daniel Forró ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
- what is the most attractive point(s) for you personally on FM synthesis
See above.
MT
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Daniel Forró danforcz@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2016-02-18 01:20:47 UTC
Permalink
Indeed Yamaha DX synthesis is good for organ patches, they can be
created by FM only, additive only or by combination of FM stripes or
of both types (additive component synthesis). Simulation of chorus/
vibrato and Leslie has its limitations but there are external effect
processors which can do it well or perfectly (for example older Korg
G4, or modern Ventilator, MiniVent, GSI Burn...).

I omitted intentionally in my questionnaire other aspects of Yamaha
instruments like keyboard, user interface, design, production quality,
reliability... We all know it's very good when instruments can still
be used after 33 years.

Daniel Forro
Post by David Robinson ***@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
Let me say first that I've been a working musician since the early
1980's. I couldn't afford a DX when they came out back then. I
bought my first DX7 in 2000 from eBay for $200. It was a first
generation. I wore it out and bought another for about the same
price. A bandmate then sold me his DX7IIfd for $250. I gigged
extensively with both and just recently acquired a.SY99. I've never
been able to wrap my head around the programming aspects and rely on
the onboard sounds and whatever cartridges I can lay my hands on.
From a performer/player's perspective, the Yamaha action/keybed on
the DX and related synth keyboards can't be beat. I have destroyed
many less robust actions on synths and electric pianos over the 30+
years.
The best compliment on my DX7II was from a guy that toured with a
Hammond B3/Leslie rig. I was using the "Grinder" patches to cover
organ sounds. He actually came up onstage and looked for the Leslie!
scott@soundengine.com [YamahaDX]
2016-02-17 21:02:21 UTC
Permalink
My understanding of intellectual property, which I deal with quite a bit in my job, is that the patches would not be intellectual property, unless formal copyrighting of the data was done at the time of its creation.

The algorithm that is FM synthesis is indeed intellectual property, but the numbers you feed into it to make sounds are generally not. Unless, as I mentioned, formal steps were taken.


But, I could be all wrong.


:)


Scott
SoundEngine, LLC
Cool sounds & recordings. Download now.
http://www.soundengine.com/ http://www.soundengine.com/
Daniel Forró danforcz@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2016-02-18 00:11:51 UTC
Permalink
I think sound patches are intellectual property and can be under the
copyright if the creator/programmer wouldn't offer them as public
domain. IMHO it's a kind of software. Computer software is also made
only from some numbers fed into the computer hardware, and it is
copyrighted. Music are just some notes put together horizontally and
vertically in the certain order, and it is under the copyright.

If it is not copyrighted how could you live from the selling synth
patches? Maybe you offer them without payment and customers pay only
for your kindness, cover, CD-ROM or disk, packing and delivery? :-)

Daniel Forro
Post by ***@soundengine.com [YamahaDX]
My understanding of intellectual property, which I deal with quite a
bit in my job, is that the patches would not be intellectual
property, unless formal copyrighting of the data was done at the
time of its creation.
The algorithm that is FM synthesis is indeed intellectual property,
but the numbers you feed into it to make sounds are generally not.
Unless, as I mentioned, formal steps were taken.
But, I could be all wrong.
:)
Scott
SoundEngine, LLC
Cool sounds & recordings. Download now.
http://www.soundengine.com/
Florian Anwander fanwander@mnet-online.de [YamahaDX]
2016-02-18 09:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Hello
Post by ***@soundengine.com [YamahaDX]
My understanding of intellectual property, which I deal with quite a
bit in my job, is that the patches would not be intellectual property,
unless formal copyrighting of the data was done at the time of its
creation.
A "synth patch" is a configuration of parameters, so there is no
inventive idea behind it (which is required for beeing "intellectual
property"). So there never can be any formal copyrighting. There was a
denying court decision on a claim by a well known patch producer here in
Germany in the early 90s. The claim by the same producer in England
wasn't even accepted.

Florian

msc1958@yahoo.com [YamahaDX]
2016-02-17 17:19:40 UTC
Permalink
This is an awesome idea.
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